Title:پادکست هلندی – قسمت ۸ – درس هلندی در طراحی شهری

پروفسور ویلیام پول به ما می گوید که چرا وقتی به دانش آموزان کانادایی خود در مورد برنامه ریزی زیست محیطی آموزش می دهد، از هلند به عنوان مطالعه موردی استفاده می کند. ما همچنین میراث هلندی زادگاه او، لندن، انتاریو را بررسی می کنیم.

https://www.dutchthemedia.com/

قسمتي از متن فيلم: Foreign Welcome to Dutch the podcast look I only had half my headset on there I’m so ready to party Tom that’s great hey good to see you Mike nice to see you too uh and thank you very much for joining us for Dutch the podcast uh if you are

Watching this and you’ve watched a couple and you’re thinking wow there’s going to be more of this great stuff I encourage you to subscribe to the show no matter where you’re getting it on any platform on YouTube you can even hit the notification button and when we do a new

One of these we’ll make sure that you get it uh how’s things going Tom things are going well um we’re um you know we’ve just got a new magazine out to Dutch the magazine uh went out with some really interesting uh articles about uh places in the

Netherlands uh warm on the bulb District it’s uh it’s becoming Springtime again well you wouldn’t say it from looking Outdoors but uh Springtime the Tulips will be coming up soon so we visit the Tulip region uh we return to Pella Iowa where they’ve got got some recipes that have been handed down the

Generations since they came to America so uh some good stuff some cookies some some meals um we we talked to a very well-known Dutch supermodel called Frederick Van Der Waal she lives in New York and she um she’s an entrepreneur a producer TV producer she’s a former supermodel and

It was really fascinating to to talk to her for the magazine well I I didn’t get to do that myself unfortunately but one of our correspondents did um so I was going to ask you uh you didn’t do the interview but I was I was just wondering if she had asked

About me I guess that guy that does the podcast I want to talk to him can you put me in touch bald guy on the podcast so uh yeah so so yeah the magazine you know it’s so interesting where the magazine all ends up and and that’s uh

The topic of today’s podcast actually well the Topic’s not where it ends up but it ended up in a university a college in London Ontario where one of the professors actually uses our magazine as classroom teaching material so I’m going to be asking him about that uh him a little quiz yeah

So apparently um what we write about uh specifically when we talk about Dutch uh cities and Dutch places uh to visit is how land planning is different in the Netherlands from Canada and is sort of an example for the world so that’s what we’ll be quizzing him on Val very cool uh I’ll

Tell you what we’ll uh we’ll get into the interview in just one second I will remind you uh we love it when you reach out uh please do that by going to dutchthemedia.com there’s a form there that you can fill out there’s the the contact info there uh also at Dutch the

Media you can get into the publication side of things where there are uh countless number of amazing Publications and books that you can you can purchase through there so uh take a minute and visit dutchthemedia.com you can take out subscriptions there as well or if there’s a specific uh issue

That interests you you can either purchase a back copy if we have them available still not all of them are so that’s why it’s so important to subscribe to the magazine because we don’t always have enough back back issues but a good number there back issues and every single issue of Dutch

The magazine can be downloaded in PDF format uh on Dutch the media as well okay well listen uh why don’t we get Collegiate for a minute you have a chat with will and I’ll see you on the other side perfect so we’re welcoming Professor William Pohl from Fanshawe College to this

Episode of Dutch the podcast we’re very glad to be speaking to Professor Paul and you’ll find out why that is very soon I hope uh welcome to the show uh William thank you very much Tom it’s a real pleasure for me to be here and to appear on your podcast I appreciate the

Invitation that’s great and and you know I appreciate the work we’ve done together uh over the past couple of years uh full disclosure I’ve given some guest lectures uh in uh Williams class uh which is a environmental design and planning class well uh let’s let’s let

Him explain it so uh Will William if you could just introduce us to Fanshawe College and then in specific to your role what do you teach what kind of class do you teach and then uh why are we jogging on this podcast how does that fit together what’s Dutch the podcast

Have to do with anything absolutely so Adventure college is uh here in London Ontario we have about 20 000 full-time students and my role at the college is to teach City Planning urban planning the course that Tom speaks to is my national and international planning course where I’m doing a comparison

Between National planning here in Canada and National planning in the Netherlands and and trying to see the similarities and differences and uh the Dutch magazine has been a big part of giving the students a really good overview and an accessible format to look for planning questions and sites and issues

That are happening in the Netherlands so that’s really been my connection uh we’re looking at at specific land use planning or sites in Canada and the Articles aren’t are aren’t directly related to planning but once we know the site then we can look at the site in

More detail and see how it relates to planning in the Canadian context I was really impressed with how that works out in the class because you’re right we we’re not a planning magazine we’re not a design magazine we cover a Dutch culture in you know in its widest sense

From history to food to um uh but also lots of places so you highlight a number of places in in your class and then you bring that back to uh to the topic you teach so I I was very excited we spoke I I did my uh lecture uh my guest lecture

Last night and and it was just just a lot of fun to talk about places in in the Netherlands absolutely and and the students really appreciate uh you joining us because you bring a very lived experience to what what I’m talking about in the Netherlands uh talking about in the

Classroom they can hear firsthand how it was how it is to live in the Netherlands absolutely now why why did you choose the Netherlands how does it contrast with the Canada is is there anything that Canada can learn from uh from Holland in that respect or is it just

Comparing the two um two different approaches and if so how does that difference uh manifest itself so uh myself my Heritage is Dutch so I have an interest in Dutch planning the exposure that I’ve had over my years in the planning profession has introduced me to some great planning

Ideas in the Netherlands and what I found in my teaching is in the Canadian context we have lots of land in the Netherlands context we have relatively little land so we can compare how the two planning ideas strategies are happening in Canada and happen in the Netherlands so there’s difference in approaches

The the second reason is is the water piece so everyone under understands that much of the Netherlands is subject to flooding they have extensive ways of managing water the flood risks and in Canada we have a very much different approach we have lots of fresh water

We’re not as concerned and you can see how water management is different and then the third piece which is probably the most interesting is just the philosophy about land use planning in the Canadian context we prepare regulations we have policies that that really prevent bad things from happening

And in the Netherlands it’s more the opposite they are proactive planning they are investing in communities they’re investing in spaces to get the best possible planning they can achieve so it’s a little bit different one is sort of regulatory one is proactive in investment that’s that’s what I’ve been teaching our students

Okay and and yesterday when uh when I was in the class there was one one of your students had recently been to the Netherlands uh and and I found that she really um you know applied what she’d seen there even before um we had this specific class to uh to

The questions she asked me and I thought that was really interesting it it is interesting and I think that’s the um four years of studying here at franchise in The Bachelor of environmental design and planning course when when students go out into to visit places to see things they’re I think they’re more

Observant and they they see the relationship between buildings and and transportation and movement and then they can bring that back into the classroom just as we had that experience last night where she had some very thoughtful comments on her Dutch experience exactly so two of the subjects we talked about

And and you choose different subjects from the magazine um every year of course but we talked about two specific topics in the Netherlands one is the uh the big uh suburb of Amsterdam South East uh and and tied around a Redevelopment of of a Monumental uh building a former bank

Um headquarters that’s now being repurposed um and the other one was the Holocaust names Memorial a totally different type of structure different setup uh what made you choose why did you choose in particular those two uh two topics so uh on the on the first site um in southeast Amsterdam the

The site and history around the site is very similar to some of the planning challenges that we’ve experienced here in Canada there’s an area a poor area uh poorly developed and planners are coming in to re-design it to to create a beautiful inviting uh successful community that’s what happened in in Amsterdam’s

Uh Southeast that they had those challenges they made the changes and over time they were not successful it became a blighted area and there are parallels in Canadian experience where we we’ve done the same things we’ve made mistakes in the land use planners thought they had the the solution

They built it as per the the ideas of the time in the case uh of Amsterdam Southeast it was separating land uses separating living working and Recreation and the result was not successful we’ve done the same thing in Canada what I like about the experience in Amsterdam Southeast is what they did

After the fact so Amsterdam rethought the the challenges and are now rebuilding in a in a different way the same number of units the same number of people but in a far more human scale form of development yeah yeah for for the listeners who are not aware of the area

Um in in the 1960s and 1970s um a large suburb was was uh built an excerpt almost because it’s not even connected to Amsterdam itself with huge um uh residential um uh Tower buildings uh separated by a wide park lands with lots of opportunities for uh to enjoy

Um the the space but as you said they separated all the functions you know living separate from working separate from uh shopping separate from Recreation and it just didn’t work uh it turned into a desolate Lonesome landscape with with lots of opportunities for um you know a crime to grow

Etc so they’ve turned it back into a much more human scale model where the different functions are integrated that that’s the development I presume that’s taken place worldwide in in planning um in philosophy around planning uh that’s correct so we’ve we’ve started to change our thinking about land use

Planning that living in high-rise buildings away from the the ground level without a connection to the to the grade is not good planning we need to have Vitality activity you want people to have eyes on the street to make it feel safe to make you want to have that

Community built at the at the ground level and have people take ownership of that public space and the earlier models where we build high-rises with lots of green space at the ground level where people would leave their apartment building hop into their car and and travel out of the community

That was not the good model that created the crime uh the poverty area the poverty stricken areas and we’re trying to change that by bringing people back onto the street giving them ownership of that space so that they’re going to look after it that they’re going to feel that it’s part of

Their Community yeah it’s a prime example of that and I really enjoy going to the air lived there for four years and and I really really enjoy going back there and seeing how it’s uh developed over the over time now and what about the um Holocaust Memorial

But the Holocaust Memorial is is another aspect of our of our program so we look at land use planning at a big scale uh Southeast Amsterdam but also on a small scale on a site design scale and the Holocaust Memorial in Amsterdam is is an excellent example this site

Commemorates a horrific event that happened uh relatively recently people still know what happened they have family members and this Holocaust Memorial was a way to commemorate the hundreds of thousands of Jewish residents of Amsterdam and the Netherlands who were sent to the concentration camps and the death camps

In Germany and each brick in the memorial has a name of a person who was lost from the Jewish community it’s important for our students to understand how their designs can bring emotion to people how it can commemorate really significant events and how those significant events create a sense of place

And this Holocaust Memorial is located close to the original uh Jewish ghetto in Amsterdam and it brings people uh there to really think about how this kind of genocide did happen and the risk that it can happen even in in our modern world uh recently in places like Rwanda or de fur

Um it’s an important reminder for our students and then how they can capture that really important significant event and commemorate it in place so that’s why it was was a a really good example that’s yeah that’s great so so you’re also focused on how how do we use a

Couple of city blocks rather than a whole uh subdivision in terms of land planning um what surprised me actually when I saw the assignments that you set that you’d included one non-dutch assignment with a strong Dutch flavor and listeners regular listen to podcasters he’s going to talk about

Pella Iowa again and I am going to talk about tele again uh because you chose that as one of your you’ve got so many topics to choose from because you look at you know a two years worth of Dutch the magazines many articles but you chose Pella why uh

Uh I chose Pella because there were some very interesting planning ideas presented uh the article on Pella talks about the history and how the how the community was established and that the Community felt uh strong ties to their Origins they’ve decided to celebrate that and create a unique sense of place called

Pella Iowa and they do that through landscape design with the Tulips and the parks they’ve done that with the buildings uh recreating Heritage buildings and Dutch style of buildings so that’s first of all creating a sense of place but then secondly they’re they’re building on that uniqueness and those characteristics by inviting uh

People from throughout Iowa throughout North America to come and visit them to celebrate uh important events and it’s it’s in fact become a very much a tourist destination with over 250 000 people attending a small community of about ten thousand who are hosting this this large community

So it’s it’s gone from a sense of place uh thinking of your heritage and now it’s become an economic development uh tool to improve the economy uh to build community and I think this is one of the things that we’ve talked about last night that the fact that everyone in the

Community participates in those events and that supports Pella being quote unquote Dutch really strengthens that community sometimes as city planners or as designers we don’t appreciate how important having Community can be to to a city or a place and um recognizing the people working together for a common cause for common good

Makes a much stronger community um absolutely yeah yeah I was talking to uh to to one of the residents this morning on On a related topic and it shown through again how important that sense of community is for that that to town small town in in central Iowa um

When we first got in touch when we started first started doing this together you approached me in particular about an event uh that takes place once a decade in the Netherlands so every four years you have the Olympics every um four years you have FIFA but in Holland there’s an event that takes

Place only once in every 10 years once a decade and it’s it’s related to planning and and and I believe you went there on a on a field trip last year when uh when the uh event took place in almir um can you tell us a little bit about

That what what fascinates you about that what is it what fascinates you about it and and and what you take away from that so for sure so one of my lectures to my students is about floriata and the floriata is uh every 10 years it happens in a different

Place in the Netherlands as a showcase first of all for horticulture and the Dutch growing industry but also the Dutch government the municipal municipalities communities use floriata as a place to uh improve the community to demonstrate a good design good planning I was first interested in it when I went to visit

The Netherlands uh one of my relatives suggested that I drop by and go to floriata fast forward a number of years to teaching here at Fanshawe College my original goal was to bring students to the Florida to see the project in Almira in 2022 the Florida was Greening the cities

And that’s very much around sustainability uh vegetation creating a healthy City this was exactly what we’re trying to teach our students through our Bachelor of environmental design and planning program and floriana was a it was an actual living laboratory where you could see sustainability happening so I was very excited um

To to go there before the event happened I spoke to the organizers and I Was preparing my students to attend unfortunately due to the pandemic I wasn’t able to take my students but I did go with a colleague of mine to the four out of site brought

Back a lot of the great ideas we were able to meet with the Chief landscape architect for the Florida and we’re building relationships with the University Ayers University in Almira that has a campus right on the Florida they’re in fact coming to visit here at Fanshawe

College in a few weeks so we can build student exchanges exchange of information well that’s that’s that’s great so uh that’d be something that would be available to to students at Fanshawe um in in future academic years absolutely if I have a chance I will certainly I’d love to take some students

To the Netherlands to see a lot of the planning sites that I’m talking about in my class actually perfect oh that that’d be great um well well that’s all oh very interesting it’s interesting how you can use the Netherlands as a case study in a planning environmental design and planning course

Um I’d like to get personal actually if you don’t mind um and this is related to to the fact that you’re of Dutch Heritage but you were born in Canada um you were born in London Ontario and everything points to a strong Dutch presence in London Ontario can you talk

A little bit about what it meant growing up you know as a Canadian but as a Dutch Canadian in in London Ontario uh absolutely um I’m both my parents were from the Netherlands uh immigrants in the early 50s and for me having that Dutch Community gave me a broader perspective

Um Not only was I involved with regular things at um in school and high school but my parents you told me last night just sorry to interrupt you that you were taught uh Dutch language in your high school in Canada that that’s correct so for extra credit

Uh I actually went to Saturday morning uh Dutch language school I took my children to Dutch language school and I thought well I was there anyway I should take uh Dutch language classes too uh so I I ended up graduating with a high school diploma grade 12 diploma in Dutch

Language that’s amazing I didn’t even know that existed so so that was an eye-opener for me yeah and I think that reflects the fact that there there is uh a very strong Dutch Heritage here in the London area both within the the city um in the communities but also in Middlesex

County surrounding London uh if you go further uh to the East Oxford County uh large Dutch communities in Norfolk County that all support uh the Dutch heritage personally my parents uh were members of the Dutch Canadian Society of London and District that started in 1961 and my parents used to

Go every Saturday night to the Dutch Canadian Society for dancing visiting friends and you could really did they meet there actually uh no my parents actually uh met in the Netherlands so they were oh that you met your wife there I met my wife there was something yeah no

I uh so my wife sorry my wife was at the Dutch Canadian Society dance one night and my mother suggested to me that oh Dorothy uh might like a date sometime so a few weeks later I call uh called her up and asked her out on a blind date originally uh we

Did actually go dancing and um uh 35 years later yesterday the rest is history yeah all started the Dutch Canadian Society here in London Ontario well there you go uh yeah London and and this is one of those interesting things about the immigration uh of of

The Dutch in in the 1950s to uh to Canada in particular um Holland was was very much uh divided along religious lines in those days not anymore it’s very secular society now but uh a lot of the Catholic immigrants went to London whereas a lot of the uh Protestants and reformed immigrants went

To different areas is that something that you could still see in institutions in London in any way there are still a number of uh Christian Reformed churches in in the city of London um there is a uh Christian Elementary School in a Christian High School that have their roots in the Christian

Reformed uh Faith um so that you also have a Catholic Dutch Credit Union I I know they wouldn’t even want me to say that right now because they’ve rebranded as purely Canadian but one of the largest credit unions in Ontario uh was founded by Dutch Catholic Farmers is isn’t that correct the the

That’s correct so I’m gonna say in in the mid-1950s uh the Dutch Catholic priests uh along with some business people started What’s called the what’s now called the Libro Credit Union originally called uh Saint Willie Brook Credit Union um and that was they started it because the Dutch Farmers couldn’t access traditional uh

Uh credit lines of credit to buy Farms so this was a way for the for the community to join together as a credit union and give access for Investments and businesses and and certainly it’s now called the liberal Credit Union has a lot of Dutch Heritage I remember they’ve had a beautiful mural

In their Bank offices showing uh people traveling from the Netherlands to Canada by plane by boat very inspiring so there were a lot of Dutch connections as well as the you know the first president C CEO had a Dutch Heritage and and promoted the values that our Dutch immigrants brought to Canada

That’s that’s great yeah um and and um Libro is only is one of uh originally 15 or 16 Dutch credit unions in Ontario there’s two left Libra being one duka in uh in Toronto being the other uh but a lot of the smaller ones of Amalgamated

And their DNA still lives on in other credit unions um throughout the province um listen it’s been great talking to you and it’s great to hear what kind of lessons um other countries can learn from the Netherlands in terms of planning it’s also great to hear a little bit about

The Dutch uh history of London is there anything else you’d like to share anything in particular that you think might be relevant um just to to say that the Dutch community in London and Southwest Ontario has been a very strong contributor to the economy uh to sports and entertainment uh quite

Often you see names last names with Dutch Heritage and and I’m very proud to um have both parents who’ve come to the Netherlands and it’s been um it’s been great thank you very much it’s been it’s been wonderful uh working with you with the with the class and uh you

Know it’s great to know that you used uh our shared Heritage uh in in your teaching uh that’s just fantastic thank you so much for joining us and and I look forward time to having you back uh to the class so next time maybe we should do one of those field trips together

Thank you bye-bye bye Tom thank you that’s a really interesting discussion with uh will uh and a a lovely guy uh thank you uh to Fanshawe College for Lending them to us that’s fascinating uh it’s a completely different way of laying out Society in the Netherlands not just streets

Oh oh waterways uh land use Recreation uh everything yeah I I I I got to do a guest lecture a couple of times at the college and and I really enjoyed and there’s a lot of buy-in from the students especially the ones that have already visited the Netherlands there’s

A girl in the class last night when I did did a guest lecture there who’d been to Amsterdam very recently and she connected everything you know that we talked about to to back to her visit uh which you really enjoyed uh I think one of the planning student right I was

Going to say if you’re an urban planning student and you’re in a place and immersed in how it is actually working properly then there’s no way that you can’t get on side uh it is uh very cool well an excellent discussion and uh like always Tom a great guest there’s many of

Those as you go back in time with the podcast don’t hesitate to do that if this is the first one that you saw uh and uh or listen to and we’ll encourage you to listen to more of them don’t forget Dutch the magazine vote now go to dutchthemedia.com if you’d like to

Subscribe to that and uh we will see you next time right here thanks Tom yeah thank you Mike and see you next week foreign Foreign

ID: cKypEx-SCgY
Time: 1679104908
Date: 2023-03-18 05:31:48
Duration: 00:32:00

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