Title:برنامه ریزی برای آتش سوزی های جنگلی

جیم شواب، AICP، مدیر مرکز تحقیقات برنامه‌ریزی خطرات APA با کارشناسان در مورد برنامه‌ریزی برای آتش‌سوزی‌های جنگلی در کارگاه خطرات طبیعی ۲۰۱۳ در برومفیلد، شرکت مصاحبه می‌کند. آژانس مدیریت اضطراری فدرال AICP – منطقه هشتم ثبت شده در ۱۵ جولای ۲۰۱۳

قسمتي از متن فيلم: Hello this is jim schwab manager of the hazards planning research center at the american planning association i’m going to introduce a panel for this discussion in just a second but this uh taping is part of a blog that we have done for the planning for post-disaster recovery next generation project

That apa is doing for the federal emergency management agency that’s going to result in sometime in the first half of 2014 in a new pas report that basically is rewriting the original report on post-disaster recovery from 1998 we’re here at the natural hazards workshop in broomfield colorado

And uh this is a great opportunity to meet a number of the key practitioners in this whole field of natural hazards and so i’ll start to my right with kathy prudhomme who is with the national fire protection association but has prior experience out here in colorado with the colorado springs fire

Department she can talk a little bit about some of her local experience as well as experience with the state of colorado in emergency management affairs and then to my immediate right is don elliott don is a long time zoning practitioner and consultant with clarion associates in denver has worked with numerous communities on

A variety of development code issues and worked on a project with the national fire protection association on codes relevant to controlling wildfire threats and then to my left is tim gelston who coordinates community planning and capacity building recovery support function number one for region eight of the federal emergency management agency

Here in colorado uh also had a long deployment in new jersey with the sandy recovery operations and we’re here to to talk about specifically recovery from wildfires so the first question i’m going to pose to the the panel and you can decide who wants to respond first

Is what is unique about recovery from wildfires as distinct from any other kind of disasters what are what what are some of the unique features that we have to worry about i’ve been thinking about this question a little bit and and you know uh so i’m gonna get

Let me fumble a little bit but looking for the right words i think to express what the difference is obviously at the very basic level it isn’t different right it causes property damage it’s fairly unpredictable in terms of its start although i think we can map it pretty

Well i think we know where those areas of vulnerability are going to be pretty much predict that and curiously land development practices seem to want to put more people in those vulnerable areas it’s kind of that quixotic uh thing with our land development uh world that we we

Perhaps is just driven by the market we enjoy living in places that maybe tend to have a higher vulnerability so um from a from a the federal perspective of response and recovery i think i would say that the players are different especially in the recovery world there are different federal agencies

Different processes different uh different programs that come to bear um i i don’t really know maybe kathy you would know it you know the efficacy of those programs versus maybe those aimed at flood events or not but uh well i think one of the things that is unique is the human

Dynamic of that now a lot of times and we’ll focus in specifically on waldo canyon and colorado springs you know even though the city for more than a decade before the fire had gone to neighborhoods and talked about mitigation and risk and you’re in an area that’s impacted down to the scale

Of identifying by individual address what their level of risk was there were people in that community that really were still i’ll just say in denial that there was a risk it’s that we have curbs and gutters and sidewalks and street lights and my neighbor is literally three feet away from me how

Could i have a wildfire risk so for their recovery you had a group of people who were still in denial that there would ever be a wildfire or that they had a risk so you know you have people who accept that risk and understand it and mitigate it

Or you have another group a large part of a population that say i live in an urban area the grocery store is you know a half a block away how can i have a wildfire risk so i think that does add a little bit of a different element in

There because you have people that didn’t even understand that they were in an area that was vulnerable just add one other thing i think that’s the insurance uh scene too you know the flood um i think folks who are vulnerable to flooding events have a much higher understanding of the

Importance of insurance whereas for fire events i think we often take it uh for granted that our that our insurance coverage covers what’s damaged and and that event and i think i think i’ve been told that that’s more likely the case that your homeowner’s insurance carries that fire

Rider and you don’t need that extra coverage so it’s as a result the aftermath is often uh there’s a higher level of insurance and a higher level of support and resource there for for communities okay well tim um you know you’ve had some experience with this new national disaster recovery framework uh

Obviously more in the context of hurricane sandy but uh you’re out here in region eight uh i wonder if you have some thoughts on how we can best apply this ndrf structure to in the context of wildfires you know we’ve had two years of pretty horrific wildfire activity here in

Colorado and the intermountain west uh really um and in those two years the first year of course the ndrf was out the national disaster recovery framework was out um there was there was an uh i think an impulse and perhaps eagerness to get the ndrf and the

One of the ideas in the ndrf is a federal disaster recovery coordinator position or somebody who’s going to help kind of coordinate the landscape of federal agencies and presumably recovery activities at the federal level as they roll to the state and to the local level both years that happened an fdrc was was

Identified appointed um it’s been kind of curious that at least from my perspective the the activities of the agencies involved have a have seemed to have the capacity to address the the events that um that occurred and the damage that occurred um which isn’t to say there’s not a role

For the fdrc i think that that role of coordinating across a broad field of stakeholders is a good one and then i think colorado’s certainly learned from that and they have a a corollary to the federal disaster recovery coordinator in their state disaster recovery coordinator and i think they’ve been very useful at

Bringing the disparate parties again to the table and helping them understand and share resources i think there’s a lot of promise that in the ndrf that we haven’t explored yet there are there are certainly ways to and other agencies to to potentially bring to the table who might have resources

Um and i think that’s you know the role going forward is understanding um what those opportunities are and and getting getting those those folks working in those programs to understand that maybe there’s a place for them at the table too and then there’s a reason

For them to to be there okay well kathy i think i’ll start with you on this next question which is uh can can local pre-planning for recovery from wildfires help in any way with with communities and and you know what might that look like honestly from my experience at the local

And state level i can tell you that there’s no finger pointing here it’s a matter of resources and funding and i have to say in my experience there has been little communication and education with residents about recovery what does recovery even entail what does that mean

What are the traumas that come with that so again i think it’s a resource issue that nobody really has a staff or somebody that can talk about that topic if we’re going to dedicate the one or two small resources that we have we’re going to talk about preparedness and

Mitigation not recovery but the funny thing about that is i think if we add recovery into that mix of conversation that that increases preparedness and mitigation because people don’t understand all that comes with recovery they don’t understand the social issues the emotional issues the financial hardships so maybe if we were able to

Incorporate that into preparedness and mitigation it could impact recovery yeah which leads to my follow-up question which is whether that can or should be part of the preparation of community wildfire protection plans under that i i just think having having watched and lived for the past decade um educational efforts on wildfire

Mitigation and preparedness that that that is one piece that we haven’t been had the luxury of looking at and that i do think that in all components of that that if we could illustrate and visualize for people what it’s like after the event that that would

Maybe engage them a little bit more on the front end i do think that that’s an important piece well and i would add from the most of my practices related to writing codes and most of them are related to prevention and the big problem in prevention is

That you know you approve two percent of your housing stock a year and the other 98 is already there so how are you going to reach the 98 that are probably 90 of that 98 do not meet what the standards would be today and i think it would be good in the pre-planning

Stage to just let everybody know up front when you’re damaged and you’re rebuilding we are going to enforce all of these requirements regardless of the degree of damage to your house so that you you get re-under they understand most of the time it would just prepare them for that fact but from

A local government point of view the last thing you want to do is to be approved rebuilding in the same form that just burned and i think the public can understand that no if if god forbid my house burns i will understand when the government says no no no you’re

Going to have to rebuild this as a new house the way we would approve a new house today and maintain it that way yeah i’m just going to say that there’s an interesting story out of colorado springs for last year and that one of the one of the homeowners associations

Had a set of uh covenants and deed restrictions that required shake shingle roofing and of course you know in the aftermath of the of the event we can we can look at that and say well you know how silly was that but 20 years ago or 15 years ago when

When they when they went through and did the final development plan for that and when the planning commission was you know sat in their diocese and agreed that this was a good thing and they were going to go ahead and approve it they probably didn’t think about that

You know but that but that’s the and i think that’s the place where community planning can really provide that kind of linkage and assistance to uh mitigation yep you know pre-disaster mitigation early on so yeah well let me follow up with you down at this point which is uh

Getting into those codes what what kinds of local development code provisions do you find are effective in mitigating wildfire threats well we did a study with nfpa last year to look at this reviewed lots of communities not only sophisticated but those in conservative and unsophisticated fairly small government communities to say what

Works it the answers came back pretty clear number one fire resistant roof uh not not not a fire reserve not a not a flammable roof number two was defensible space and that’s the clear message if you had to do two things you would enforce that and you would be extremely strict about

Saying when you touch your roof to fix it or expand it or repair it you’re going to put on a fire resistant roof defensible space is harder and i can talk more about that if you want after the waldo canyon fire we’ve heard more they’ve been a lot of analysis of

That and i would add at that point kind of three and four you know decks turned out to be a big problem and decks are expensive but they’re not expensive as rebuilding a house so i think number three on my list would be fire resistant decks and number four would be making

Sure that the fire doesn’t get into the roof of the building through soffits and grid i mean that’s don elliot’s if i had to say what four things would i say you ought to do first in your code those are the those are the ones um i will say in

The same breath that i was up talking with boulder uh i was up listening a presentation of how boulder city is going to update their codes and they have had on the edges of boulder city fire risks wildfire risk they’re almost certainly just going to move to complete

Sprinklering of the houses and yes it’s three thousand dollars yes or four or five yes it’s a percentage of the housing cost to be honest in a group of homeowners that would be extraordinarily unpopular i gotta tell you in the boulder planning commission they say people spend more than that deciding

What they blow more money than that on their carpet choice you know we are not gonna we’re not we’re gonna take away the choice of carpet and say no you’re gonna spend that money on the spring clearing and then if you’ve still got money you can choose a better carpet

Yeah and then and two of those things you mentioned between the soffits and eaves and so on and the decks both introduce that classic problem of updraft that brings the fire into the home and then you’re gone that’s that was a lesson i got and i’m not a firefighter but from the

Presentations from people who have studied and studied and studied the waldo canyon is they burned from the top down and they burned when the roof or the fire got inside the roof of the house if it burned the deck it may still burn the house but there are cases in which the

Decks did burn and people were able to get them off or they did limited damage so what you really don’t want to have is have it get on the roof or in the roof right right or into the attic yeah so uh let me follow up here with the question about

Obviously you’ve suggested a number of things that communities can do they don’t all do them so is is there some sort of do we find some kind of resistance in communities to adopting these kinds of codes and what might be sort of the source of that resistance if it’s out there what

You know what can we do to overcome that well i think a lot of people that move into louis areas one probably the best example is the black forest fire that was just a month ago yeah you might want to explain what wu is sure the wildland urban interface when people make those

Choices to live there and the wui is where development meets developed areas or forested areas is that that construction is not always recent construction you might have cabins that were built in the late 1800s and vacation homes and mobile homes and then in the last 10 15 20 years you’ve had big development

Where there’s people who have million dollar plus homes in there so you have this mixture of demographics and psychographics that live in that area and their value systems are very different those people that moved there maybe in the 60s or 70s moved specifically to those areas because

There were no codes or no ordinances and they didn’t want to see their neighbors or meet their neighbors and they kept the vegetation there for that screening purpose so that value system is so different but without coming in and using some recent fires as educational opportunities and create that top of

Mind awareness about how maybe back then those were acceptable not to do anything and to keep the the tree in the middle of your deck that you’ve built the deck around and all those other issues but use some of those recent fires as educational opportunities that we are evolving and

Fire risk is growing and working on changing those mindsets and those behaviors and attitudes okay either you have anything to add well i would add a little bit more about i would agree with everything kathy said it’s and there’s self-selection you know and i choose to live where there’s very

Little government to tell me what to do and lo and behold there’s very little government to tell me what to do but i think covenants are a new area as i mentioned earlier the real issue in my mind the real risk reduction frontier is figuring out how to deal

With the homes that have already been built we know how to build fire resistant home today that’s not the problem problem is the ones that are already there so how do what’s your hook to do that it’s they’re very resistant to the government telling them to do that however governments could

Work on the on on on covenants for example you know we know now that if you write a racially restrictive covenant the state’s courts are not in you’re not going to be able to enforce that in court it’s illegal it’s unconstitutional some cities some states have done that with backyard

Clotheslines saying we think people ought to be able to dry laundry in their backyard and we’re going to say you cannot enforce those in the state courts there’s no reason you couldn’t say you’re not going to be able to enforce shake shingle ropes you’re not going to

Be unable to enforce these things in the state courts and and get the state involved in saying no because i think homeowners have a less of a resistance to covenants they bought the house the covenants were on the house it’s not big bad government you you chose to buy this house

Subject to these restrictions and i think defensible space is the number one thing to put in there is to say we can try to review and say all right you don’t want big bad government enforcing this on you because of your political conservative leanings but here’s the

Deal your covenants are going to have to include things like defensible space enforceability actually didn’t let me follow up for just a second didn’t colorado pass some legislation just a few years ago that was invalidating some of those covenants that got in the way of fires you know uh not fire safety

They did invalidate certain covenants but it was more on the sustainability so but um but the problem is the covenants are still in place so we need to work on them but i still think that’s the angle i i do think that that uh that is uh citizens are much less

Politically resistant when their homeowners association tells them they have to do they don’t like it but it’s not the elected officials they don’t think it’s communism yeah i joined this club you know right right so well i was just gonna add that the i think the insurance industry is a player

Here too and i think as we experience more of the fires there’s going to be more of a move on their part to reduce their risk and enforce or require certain activities on private property and i think it’s just a matter of time before the before homeowners start to

Feel that that pressure i know my neighbor took out 26 trees off his property uh largely because his his insurance company told him that if he didn’t they wouldn’t insure it well and i think that’s a big camera i totally agree and when we did our research around the country we found

Several not all but several of the communities that responded saying our most effective thing is when we started inviting insurance guys around with us because even though they turn us off because we’re the government they understand that you know the one thing you don’t want is a premium increase but

The one thing you really don’t want is to find that you’re not covered because of something you did that it was not permitted under your insurance so okay well let’s close this out with one final question which is uh how can local government better prepare citizens for these challenges of wildfire recovery that

We’ve been discussing any thoughts on that i think i have to reflect back to what we talked about before if we’re really talking about recovery is helping illustrate the long-term effects of that disaster especially wildfires right now if you in manitou springs there’s massive flooding related to the

Wildfire last summer all those people thought about was the wildfire missed us we were evacuated for about 48 hours we came back to our homes we dealt with a little bit of smoke and even though emergency management in that county has talked about flooding they’ve done activities to have

A community sandbag filling days and instructions on how to build and stack the sandbags around your home last summer as soon as the fire was out there could have been some media and maybe there was and i’m just not aware of it but that this is the next thing to

Expect the fire’s out but here’s the next thing that you’re going to have to deal with there’s no vegetation left to absorb all that water exactly well great thank you all for your participation in this discussion very informative for our audience and we appreciate your time thank you very much

ID: diBEcQwkXJ8
Time: 1374163974
Date: 2013-07-18 20:42:54
Duration: 00:22:06

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